Envision x Satoshi Club AMA Recap from the 4th of May

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Satoshi Club

21 min readJun 27, 2022

Hello, Satoshi clubbers Another AMA took place in Satoshi Club and we would like to introduce to you the AMA session with our friends from Envision and our guest was . The AMA took place on the 4th of May

The AMA session was divided into 3 parts with a total crypto reward pool of $500

In this AMA Recap, we will try to summarise the most interesting points for you.

Part 1 — introduction and questions from the Telegram&WebSite

Robocop | Satoshi Club

Hello Satoshi Club community ! We are pleased to announce today AMA with Envision

Pavel P

Hello everyone! Let’s welcome our guests!

Robocop | Satoshi Club

Today our special guests are @tommyiffla and @MilesBradley

Welcome to Satoshi Club !

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

Thanks for having us! Stoked to be here.

Pavel P

Welcome! How are you doing today?

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

Hi everyone, thanks for having us

Pavel P

Welcome, Miles!

So, how is it going, guys?

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

Going super well thanks. Very excited for the token launch tomorrow!

Robocop | Satoshi Club

We also very excited to do AMA with Envision !

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

Going well thanks, been a very crazy few months in the lead up to our token listing tomorrow but excited to be sharing Envision to your community

Pavel P

This is the hottest news for today, I guess! Would love to know more

So, let’s start our AMA!

Robocop | Satoshi Club

Let’s start our AMA with introduction

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

sounds good thanks

Robocop | Satoshi Club

Can you please introduce yourself and your team.

How did you get to be involved in Cryptocurrency & Envision Project?

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

I started my first film production studio 12 years ago straight out of University and built two successful businesses in the space since. Having sold my first business three years ago I still remain co-owner of Helm Media, one of Western Australia’s leading media houses. Some of my key clients include the Marriott Hotels, Tourism Australia and Toyota for which I directed and produced major TVC commercials. My crypto journey began in 2017 and my interests have only increased since then. I have a deep passion for emerging technologies and finding synergies within them

We have two other core team members; Miles Bradley (CFO) and André Lissiman (Creative director). You can see the influence and incredible branding André has produced in our website and white paper. https://envisioncoin.finance/media/pages/Whitepaper/VIS002-WHITEPAPER_v4.pdf?v=1651669838 (http://www.envisionstock.finance/whiteppaer)

Myself, Miles and André all gave up our full time jobs 8 months ago to begin the project and have never looked back. You can view the rest of the team here — www.envisioncoin (http://www.envisionstock.finance/team).finance/team (http://www.envisionstock.finance/team)

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

I was working in finance in London and started dabbling in crypto from an investment perspective over 5 years ago, slowly got more interested in the tech and going further down the rabbit hole. Fast for 3 or so years and Tom came to me with an issue he was facing in his day to day business, I had the know how of solutions that would allow us to leverage blockchain and NFTs to come up with a solution to his problem.

Robocop | Satoshi Club

Thats really impressive ! Both of you have great background and experience

Pavel P

envisionstock is not working with me. Maybe it is https://envisioncoin.finance

Robocop | Satoshi Club

By the way can you please introduce what is Envision Project ?

Pavel P

Yes, please tell us what is it all about

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

We are mid way through building what we believe to be the world’s first Web3 solution dedicated to giving stock media creators the power and control they deserve. Creating a commercial use and deriving utility from NFT and blockchain technology, Envision will facilitate the peer to peer exchange of stock media content where content creators market and sell direct to consumer, avoiding hefty fees, clunky contracts or forfeiting rights as per current Web2 solutions. Think of Envision as a decentralised/p2p version of Getty images, shutterstock, etc.

Robocop | Satoshi Club

How big are Envision team for now ?

Pavel P

So, Envision is more a HUB to connect creators and public

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

Envision is an all West Australian based team consisting currently of 9 full time employees plus a number of part time with varying backgrounds in software development, finance, marketing, media and videography/photography.

Pavel P

Are you all from Perth? Autumn should be nice there

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

In a way, we are essentially a marketplace specifically for stock media, where the content creator sells the rights to their content directly with the end consumer, removing the middleman.

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

I realise that the links above might not of been working for some. For those following please use :

Team — www.envisioncoin.finance/team (http://www.envisionstock.finance/team)

Whitepaper — https://envisioncoin.finance/media/pages/Whitepaper/VIS002-WHITEPAPER_v4.pdf?v=1651669838 (http://www.envisionstock.finance/whiteppaer)

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

Summer, Autumn, Spring and winter is all nice here

Pavel P

Thank you for the introduction!

Robocop | Satoshi Club

Thank you for the great introduction

Now we have 6 question from our community for part 1, are you ready?

Pavel P

Time to start with the community questions we selected for you!

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

Please!

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

always ready

Pavel P

Q1 From Telegram User @meml97

I read that your token $VIS will launch tomorrow, May 5th, on UniSwap and LCX, can you tell us more about this amazing milestone that you are just about to accomplish? Why did you decide to start the listing of $VIS on these two platforms? At what initial price will $VIS be listed on both platforms and what will our swapping options be if we want to acquire or change our $VIS tokens? What pairs will we have available? Also, I was wondering, do you plan to list $VIS on more DEX and CEX platforms? What should we expect from Envision and its token $VIS once this listing is done?

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

Yes, UniSwap and LCX gives us both a CEX and DEX option from launch which is very handy. WE choose LCX as we formed a partnership them them as they are the only token issuer who has been given the licence to provide token offerings in a legal and compliant manner.

Our VIS token will be paired with USDC so you can swap on with LCX or UniSwap with USDC directly.

Our listing price tomorrow will be VIS/USDC $0.2

Pavel P

Have you organized any presales already or you go directly to the listing?

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

We are already speaking with a number of CEX’s, from mid sized up to tier 1 and will be adding additional listings over time as we build our community and volume.

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

You can expect a lot from the $VIS token after listing. Envision is heavily backed by major influencers in the space. Jay Alvarrez (7.2m Followers), Jack Morris (2.5m Followers) and Jacob Ingrid (1.1m Followers) have all partnered with Envision for over 12 months which will constantly bring large audiences to both the $VIS token and platform.

Robocop | Satoshi Club

Can you please share to us the tokenomics from $VIS ?

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

We have successfully completed our pre-sale a little over a week ago

Pavel P

So, eyes on listing tomorrow, Satoshiclubbers! This should have a great potential

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

You can see all of our tokenomics here

Robocop | Satoshi Club

Cool ! its famous influencers

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

Yes we have a massive presence through our creator partners.

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

All our tokens except from a small portion of the pre-sale are vested for over 20months, the teams tokens start vesting in 6 months and vest for a total of 26 months, all our vesting schedules can be found here — https://envisioncoin.finance/vis-token

Robocop | Satoshi Club

Thank you for the detail answer !

Pavel P

Thank you for your answers!

Robocop | Satoshi Club

Do you want to add something or we can go to next question?

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

you’re welcome

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

Next questions please!

Pavel P

Q2 From Telegram User @GracieEne

I understand that VIS is Envisions native ERC20 utility token which will be used within the ecosystem. VIS will be distributed for rewards, used in exchange for content rights and used to receive staking rewards. With regards to staking, please can you tell us more about your staking protocols? How will users go about staking VIS? What is the minimum period we can stake to earn rewards? Is there a set minimum amount of VIS that users can stake? Can users decide to unstable at any time? Will they be charged for unstaking before the given period? And what other benefits would users get to enjoy when they stake with Envisions asides receiving VIS?

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

Envision will offer traditional staking protocals along with a range of premium products that we will be providing our stakers. Staking APY will be set to an amount which will alow the token to grow organically. Remeber that too high an APY can cause too much negative sell pressure. Envision has long term growth in mind and our APY will reflect that.

Envision also has a number of premium products that will get unlocked if a user has staked a certain amount. This will include things like higher income from stock sales, Access to Envisionscan and many other features.

Robocop | Satoshi Club

Beside for staking, can you provide other function from your token $VIS inside your ecosystem?

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

$VIS will be the primary token to purchase stock media. V2 of the platform will include a fiat on-ramp. This credit card facility will net Envision 4–6 percent of the purchase fees paid for by the consumer. This means the creator is always receiving 100 percent of the profits. The $VIS token powers the entire ecosystem. Each time stock is bought using credit card, it automatically buys VIS on market and redirects it to the creator.

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

Essentially VIS tokens are the exclusive form of payment on the ENVISION marketplace where consumers exchange VIS tokens for the NFT associated to a piece of stock media directly with the content creator.

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

Obviously we want the Envision stock platform to gain mass adoption and roling out a flawless credit card facility is key.

Robocop | Satoshi Club

Thank you for the detail answer

Pavel P

It is a non-stop revenue model!

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

Yes whilst not taking anything from the creator

Pavel P

Like it!

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

Stock media is a $4 billion industry. Just think about how big Envision could be if it gains mass adoption! We are First-to-market with this concept.

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

The creators have been giving up too much revenue and too much control for too long, our whole mission is around supporting the creator.

Robocop | Satoshi Club

Its a great opportunity for creator !

Pavel P

Thanks and let’s proceed to the question nr 3!

Robocop | Satoshi Club

Are you ready for the next question?

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

Sure are!

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

Yeah I think we can move on

Pavel P

Q3 From Telegram User @Anne_Tim

You say that Envision leverages blockchain technology and facilitates the peer to peer exchange of stock content where content creators sell direct to consumer, avoiding hefty fees or forfeiting rights as per current centralised solutions. So, please talk about the benefits for creators to use a middle leg in connecting them to consumers? What customer base Envision currently holds? What are the charges applied to content creators? Do they get payments only in VIS tokens or you support any fiat currencies? Thank you!

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

In current solutions like Getty Images and Shutter Stock, its not unusual for the creator to only receive 15–20% of the revenue their content sells for. Envision is changing that by removing the middleman and using smart contracts and NFT’s to provide the proof ownership rather than an expensive middle man.

The big current solutions do not personalise the creators, or benefit them in anyway, we are aiming to change that by allowing creators to build a brand within Envision, market their content and make consumers aware that 100% of their cost for content is going straight to supporting the creator.

Robocop | Satoshi Club

For the content itself, do all creator free to upload or do you have copyright system inside Envision?

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

consumers will always only receive VIS tokens, we appreciate that in many cases selling content is their sole source of income and will need to sell a portion of their VIS revenue, this is an added reason we have been building premium products that incentivise them to use a portion of their revenue to stake and unlock tools that will make them more profitable and efficient in the long run, leading to more revenue in VIS.

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

Anyone is free to upload content to the platform as long as it meets quality standards and copyright laws. A user cannot upload a photo or video that they do not own. The quality of content also has to be of a proffessional standard which will be vetted by AI and in some cases human eye.

Robocop | Satoshi Club

Thank you for the great answer !

Pavel P

How the price ranges are being built? Or they are set by content creators?

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

The creator has the ability to set the price within a certain bracket. Obviously stock content has a lower price tag that traditional NFTs so we dont want creators going wild pricing thier content. We need to remember this is stock media. High volume, low cost. We are not a traditional NFT platfrom. We are a stock media platform which leverages NFT contracts to control usage rights and distrobution. Getty iamges is currently sitting around $300 USD for a clip. Envision will sit around half of this and allow users a little leniency to determin what price tag they set.

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

One of the premium products we are building, called EnvisionScan, provides the creator insights that will help them price content accordingly. The web2 solutions that exist currently take this data on how to price content and use it to their advantage to increase profits, we are now giving this data to the creator to make them as efficient as possible in marketing and selling their own content.

Robocop | Satoshi Club

Thank you for the answer, are you ready for 4th question?

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

We sure are!

Pavel P

Q4 From Telegram User @highpee

Envision allows the verification of stock media using proof of ownership system. Can you explain how the stock media uploaded by creators are verified to be authentic based on your proof of ownership design? How will creators generate a corresponding NFT for their stock media during upload and how will the NFT be linked to the uploaded content? Also, you said that unlike conventional NFT marketplace, you have an automated quality assurance system that ensure stock media uploaded fits well into your quality criteria and where it doesn’t, the content will be blocked. What are the quality requirements that a stock media should have in order to avoid being blocked by this automated checker during upload?

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

We have a number of quality requirements for content to feature in our market place. This includes:

– AI resolution check (Meeting basic photo / video quality)

– AI reverse image and video search (Ensuring the content doesnt feature on any other platform and is owned by the correct user)

– Is not pornographic or illict in any way

We will be intorducing a DAO community that will help us vet content and be rewarded in $VIS token. This is a feature I am super excited about.

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

I think this is slightly lost in translation, when a creator uploads content, Envision will use automatic reverse image searches plus will scan Envision to prevent any duplicate content in breach of copyright infringements. When a creator uploads content to sell, a NFT is minted with unique identification linked to the RAW file, this NFT provides the proof of ownership of that content. When a consumer then purchases the rights to that content, a new NFT is forked, leaving the original NFT in the creators wallet and now giving the new licence holder proof that they can legally use the content. The contracts needed will be included in the NFT metadata and onchain for all to see.

Robocop | Satoshi Club

Thank you for the clarification

Pavel P

That sounds quite straightforward. Without any space left for fraud

Robocop | Satoshi Club

As the platform,token and NFT marketplace, Envision also use ETH chain right ? isn’t the fee expensive ?

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

the biggest challenge will all content is providing off chain proof of ownership, ie, someone buys the rights to an image legally, copies it to a thumb drive and gives it to someone else to use. Unfortunately this is very very hard to enforce, however, if someone was found to be in breach of sharing/using content that they didn’t have the rights to they could be punished in that jurisdiction just like any other copyright infringement.

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

This is a great question that I love answering. Envision is already in talks with Polygon network to provide gasless experience within the Envision stock platform. So in short, we have a layer 2 solution that will vertually make the platform fee free to use.

Robocop | Satoshi Club

Impressive ! it’s a great news

Pavel P

That’s what people will definitely love to know!

Robocop | Satoshi Club

Thank you for all the detail and clear answer !

Do you want to add anything or we can go to next question?

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

Next question please!

Pavel P

Q5 From Telegram User @Rozielyna

I read from an article of yours that Envision has three key phases of Marketing that will run Parallel with one another over the first two years, Which include Token Holders, content creators and content consumers as Phase 1,2 and 3 respectively. Can you share more Details on the 3 phases? Who are the target audience for each phase? At what stage will each phase commence after the other? On what channels/ platforms will this Marketing plan take Place for each phase, most especially for content creators and consumers ? Lastly after the first two years of this marketing plan, what will be your next move/ plan for Envision? Thank You

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

Envision has three key phases that will run in parallel with one another. This includes:

1. Token holders

2. Creators

3. Consumers

We need to market all three simultaneously to ensure we have a free flowing product and organic token growth. We need investors to grow the token, creators to provide the content and consumers to buy the content. Each phase is just as important as the next and we have big plans to ensure we see growth in all three.

Robocop | Satoshi Club

Can you please share us the Roadmap from Envision? what next update you have in the near future?

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

Creators form the entire bedrock of the Envision stock platform and are key to empowering the creator. Remember that the platform is made for creators by creators. Given our background this is something we know a lot about and is heavily needed in the Industry. We have also been able to leverage our connections and decades long experience in the industry.

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

After phase 1,2 and 3, we expect to have a significant content database and a solid userbase, getting smaller more dynamic businesses to use Envision will be easier whilst still new and we expect these smaller consumers to be on boarded in the first two years. We will start a much more targeted businesses development strategy targeting larger consumers of stock media, think about Netflix, Hollywood production houses, large PR/Marketing firms etc. These businesses are more integrated into the way they purchase content and will need to see a large database of high quality content, at a significant discount and on a slick UI/UX before they consider setting up an account with Envision.

Pavel P

Great plans! And great to see you planning longterm

So, the last question of Part 1 is almost here! Ready to see it?

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

yeah lets get it done

Pavel P

Q6 From Telegram User @nhairym

The community is a priority, you can tell us about the participation of the owners, partners and collaborators in the management and decisions to be developed on the platform, how its governance model works and what is the support of the economic model to guarantee financial solidity and long-term liquidity. term, what are their mechanisms to achieve fundraising according to their needs and commitments, do they have stable liquidity funds or do they require external financing?

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

Envision is fully funded for the next 12 months. This includes developing the entire platform, providing liquidity to market and ensuring enough marketing efforts are done to grow the project efficiantly and organically!

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

Lets open it up to the floor!

Pavel P

Before we wrap up the 1st part of our AMA, please share your official links with our community

Robocop | Satoshi Club

Thank you for the detail answer! it has been an amazing time in this first part of the AMA

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

Whitepaper — https://envisioncoin.finance/whitepaper

Website — https://envisioncoin.finance/

Telegram — https://t.me/joinchat/4KOuGZ36f3AwOTM1

Twitter — https://twitter.com/Envisionstockio

Insta — https://www.instagram.com/envisionstock/

Linkedin — https://www.linkedin.com/company/envision-stock

Discord — https://discord.gg/rashk2SvMT

Pavel P

And now, we are ready to proceed to the LIVE questions from our community. We will open chat for 120 seconds for a storm of questions to come. Once we close it back please choose 10 questions to answer. Please do not answer any questions during the storm.

Robocop | Satoshi Club

Join now Satoshi Clubber !

Now is time to proceed with the second part, the live segment part 2, are you ready for the storm of question?

Pavel P

A little less conversation, a little more action now!

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

sounds good lets do it

Pavel P

@Pratze, please open the gates!

Part 2 — live questions from the Telegram community

Q1 from Telegram user @itzabhi69

Talking about your token $VIS.

Q1. Which chain is it running on currently?
Q2. Is it also audited?
Q3. Can you mention some killer features.
Q4. Please share the contract address

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

Thanks for your question!

Q1. We are an ETH based project. We are not interested in short term projects that get pumped and dumped. ETH also has the larges amount of layer 2 volume and we beleive in reflects are values and project.

Q2. Yes we have been audited by Certik — https://envisioncoin.finance/vis-token

Q3. First-to-market with an increible concept that is game changing for the web3 and crypto space. Empowering creators and giving them control over thier rights and content. A professional and doxxed team.

Q4. 0x469084939d1c20fae3c73704fe963941c51be863

Q2 from Telegram user @burshanggal

How would you assure that perhaps the token’s worth is preserved over time, not only in the short term? Will $VIS be sold or burned?

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

Great question — everyime a user buys stock content, the consumer buys $VIS on market to then purchase that stock content. 0.2 percent of that transaction is burned and 0.5 percent of that transsaction is then sent to the LP. This means when the creators sells VIS on market. He is essentially selling 0.7 percent less. This will create upwards buy pressure overtime and increase project longevity.

Q3 from Telegram user @Kabirkapoor9

On Envision website, Creators Portal is a place where content creators interact & upload their content. Do a content Creator have to verify himself by providing KYC? And why is only MetaMask is recommend to create Wallet?

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

Great question, given the content consumers we plan to onboard will be large well established businesses who buy millions of dollars worth of stock each year, we need to be compliant with current and future AML/CTF regulations. Because of this, all creators will be required to provide details on their business which we will use to run background checks doing the appropriate level of due diligence to make sure they are not on any sanctioned lists, watch lists, PEP lists etc. Once a creator has been verified and approved they will have access to the platform which is essentially a DAPP and allows them to connect their wallet, upload and mint their content for sale. MetaMask is recommended as their institutional solution ticks a lot of boxes for a commercial application.

Q4 from Telegram user @Fabentuug

Could you please tell us a little about company marketplace’s features and functionality? What kind of payments do you accept on your marketplace?

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

Great question — Id actually prefer to answer this with a project sneak-peak 👀 These are the creator profile sections where creators can have a small description about themselves as well as showcase some of their best work. Creators and consumers can also ‘follow’ other creators to keep up to date with new content or if they simply want to note them as a preferred stock supplier etc.

Q5 from Telegram user @hectordonovans

Can you tell me when will the beta test for Envision start and how can I join your beta test? Will you take into account the positive or negative feedback from your users from your beta test? Do you think Envision is a flawless project or do you think it has shortcomings?

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

Great question — You can join the discord and fill out the google doc in the #platform-access channel.
This will give you access to our platform beta in the coming months.

Link to our discord here — https://discord.gg/rashk2SvMT

Q6 from Telegram user @Cryptorianlord

Of recent NFTs are one popular and most sought-after topics in the blockchain space right now. Can you share your opinion on NFT with us? Do you think NFT will disrupt the current financial system? What is Your project’s approach to the NFT sector?

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

NFT’s are a very hot topic and most associate them with an expensive JPEG. Personally I see this demand slowing down and more commercial use cases taking over, projects who receive utility from NFT’s like Envision. There are so many applications for NFT’s, whether is fragmented investments like property, NFT’s used as an investment vehicle like an ETF, or even more simple things like identifying a unique object at a shop and having transparency of that object and its life. I think NFT’s have long future but in a more commercial use case.

Q7 from Telegram user @Satoshi_2010

I want to know about how did the idea of this project began?

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

Being an avid user of stock media content, I never understood how the centralised web2 giants such as Getty/Shutterstock have kept such a greedy monopoly on stock media content for the past 15 years. These platforms are taking 60–85 percent of the revenue from creators and leaving them with little profit and almost no rights over how their content is distributed. Being both a creator and consumer of stock media I also understand how much budget goes into buying stock online and how disgustingly overpriced it is. These web2 solutions within this $4 billion industry have had almost no competition for the better part of 15 years and they have been charging exorbitant fees the entire time.

The solution to the problem came to me as I was buying stock on behalf of a client via Shutterstock. I thought why not integrate web3 and cryptocurrency into a peer 2 peer platform where there is NO middleman taking a cut. Let the creator sell directly to the consumer via cryptocurrency or credit card. No middle man. More profit for the creator, cheaper stock for the consumer. Win Win.

Q8 from Telegram user @deku_x_midoria

Is there a project or company you have been working with recently or would like to work on in the near future?

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)

One of Envisions Key milestones and partnerships include a collaboration with Curtin University of Technology, Western Australia’s largest University. Curtin has an incredible R&D blockchain lab lead by Dr Vidy Portdar. Curtin is undertaking the entire crypto back-end of the Envision stock platform as well as building the platforms main contract.

Q9 from Telegram user @Rakshhit

How much commission envision charges when any NFTs gets sold?

Miles Bradley (Will not DM first)

0% commission, this is our whole business model and why we have had hundreds of creators reach out wanting to be a part of our community and beta testing. The VIS token is what powers the platform by allowing us to generate revenue via the fiat onramp which covers maintenance and overheads and allows us to take 0 commission on the sale of content.

Q10 from Telegram user @hmdtadel

So the public sale via launchpad is done now, where can we find the token now? is it on uniswap??

Tommy Iffla (WILL NEVER DM)